20131106 Clay Adams

On November 6, 2013, Duke University Vice President of Student Affairs Clay Adams called me after I and other student veterans visited his on-campus office to speak with him about the poor treatment of the military community.

Clay Adams: [00:00:00] I think you—uh, I think I heard from my office that you stopped up here, and I wanted to schedule a time to meet with you.

Logan M Isaac: Okay. Tomorrow I’m gonna be down by Fort Bragg all day. Tonight I’ve got to pick up my car from the Southpoint area.

Clay Adams: Okay. What about Friday morning then?

Logan M Isaac: It’s possible. It might not be ideal, but let me look it up.
Is talking on the phone not going to work for you at all?

Clay Adams: Phone is fine. I’ll just need to schedule it. I have to run to another meeting in about five minutes.

Logan M Isaac: Okay.

Clay Adams: I did want to follow up with you. I got out of a meeting and called you.

Logan M Isaac: Okay.

Clay Adams: So we can start, but I don’t think this is a five-minute conversation.
I think you have some things you want to get off your chest, from what I’ve heard.

Logan M Isaac: Well, I have people I can talk to for that. I’m more concerned—given what I’m hearing from the student veteran organizations—about the lack of communication.
You’re not the person I talk to for emotional issues, but if your office is responsible for veterans… that’s my concern.

Clay Adams: I would not say it’s me. There’s an entire group who is responsible for veterans, and that should be the Duke community.

Logan M Isaac: Including the student veteran leaders, I assume?

Clay Adams: Correct.

Logan M Isaac: Then why haven’t they heard about this thing on Monday?

Clay Adams: Which student leaders are you referencing?

Logan M Isaac: The same ones you’ve met and know of.

Clay Adams: Which ones in particular? I’m asking because I’ve been meeting with the GVC—Gypsy—designation of students for veteran issues and concerns. There are four of those students I meet with.

Logan M Isaac: Okay. So they know about the thing on Monday?
And they’re okay with whatever communication they do or don’t have with the rest of the student veteran population?

Clay Adams: I cannot respond to that. I don’t know of any concerns.
Obviously you have strong concerns, and I want to hear them, address them, and make sure people feel in the loop.

I was just on the phone earlier today with Warren from the Divinity School, so I’m surprised to hear you felt the Divinity School wasn’t involved in veteran concerns. Is that the case?

Logan M Isaac: No. What I said was: what you told me back in February was that you wouldn’t have a problem sending information for self-identified veterans to a faculty member—
and now I’m hearing that we’re being kept from communicating openly.
That’s a concern for me as alumni, and as a veteran in the community.

Clay Adams: I think we met in April.
And I have been a complete proponent of sharing information the appropriate way.
I’ve been very clear in my communication with—
I believe her name is Alexa or Alexis, the student who works in the Divinity School.

Logan M Isaac: It’s a man. Alexis is a man.
I would’ve thought you’d know that if you’d been in touch with him.
We’re both concerned that Duke vets are being kept from communicating openly with one another.

Clay Adams: That’s the last thing we’re attempting to do.
I’ve asked many times for individuals to send me whatever information they want sent to all student veterans, and I would send it.
Ways to connect offline, ways to facilitate communication—I’ve responded to those requests.

Logan M Isaac: No—you never sent us the information you offered in April.
I remember you said you could get it to a faculty member.
We still haven’t received it. Alex hasn’t received it.
We sent you an email with information you could have forwarded—I didn’t get it. I’m still on the Duke Vets Google Group.

Clay Adams: Warren has the information for Divinity School students—that’s registrar data I pulled for him.
For the greater population, if you send me the information as an electronic piece, I’ll send it out.
Anyone working with a current student organization can send me a message and I will distribute it so others can connect.

If Alexis wants to be the point person, that’s fine.
I just need the message. I haven’t received it.
When I get it, I’ll help promote whatever group—Facebook, whatever—for reconnection.

Logan M Isaac: Send it out tonight then so we can connect with Duke vets.
As long as it’s not internal to Duke.

Clay Adams: Right.

Logan M Isaac: But you can’t give away the entire list?

Clay Adams: Correct.
There are more than 150. I’m not at liberty to give the entire list.

Logan M Isaac: You told me it was 260-something.
And you did not tell me that you couldn’t send the full list to a faculty member—that it had to be limited to the school they belong to.
That’s new information to me.

Clay Adams: I think I’ve been clear the entire time about that.

Logan M Isaac: That’s not what you told me in April.
I left thinking we could get that information, send something out, and organize an event.
I never heard from you. Not when you created the webpage, not when I was still a student.
You may be clear in the messages you send, but that doesn’t mean they’re consistent.

Clay Adams: Logan—that is not what we are doing.
You have an impression that is not accurate.

Logan M Isaac: What’s inaccurate?
You’re telling me now that what I said is false.
It’s your word against mine.

Clay Adams: I can walk you through what has happened since April.
Do we have a perfect plan? Absolutely not.
Can we do more for our veteran population? Yes.
But I am not trying to get in the way of students connecting.

Logan M Isaac: But you said you can’t give a faculty member the full list—only their school.
That contradicts what I was told.

Clay Adams: Warren has the list of Divinity students who self-identified on the registrar, GI Bill, Yellow Ribbon, etc.

Logan M Isaac: And now you’re saying it’s false that, in April, you told me otherwise.

Clay Adams: Logan, I don’t remember the exact conversation.
If I misled you, it wasn’t intentional.
If I misspoke, I apologize.

Logan M Isaac: Okay.

Clay Adams: What I can say is that Warren has the info for Divinity students.
He can send anything to that group.
I can send a message to all identified veterans campus-wide telling them how to contact you—or another student—if you want to create social spaces.

Logan M Isaac: But nothing internal to Duke.
So it must be through the separate grad/professional schools, or Facebook, or non-Duke means?
Is that correct?

Clay Adams: What do you mean?

Logan M Isaac: There’s no internal Duke structure—no community network—that can receive the total list, like the university-wide Duke Vets group.
To my knowledge, Duke Vets has no president.

Clay Adams: Maybe it’s something we can sit down and talk about.
The logical group would be GVC/Gypsy.

Logan M Isaac: But there’s no student group university-wide that ties into Gypsy?

Clay Adams: I’m not saying that.

Logan M Isaac: I’m trying to understand my options.

Clay Adams: Why don’t we just get together and meet?

Logan M Isaac: Friday morning?

Clay Adams: It doesn’t have to be Friday morning—you said Thursday is out.
I’m in meetings Friday from 2–4 p.m., and 11–1.
I can meet 8–11, 1–2, or 4–5.

Logan M Isaac: I should include the rest of the student veteran organizations as well—like Alex or others. Would that be more helpful?

Clay Adams: Sure.

Logan M Isaac: I’ll see if they can meet sometime between 8 and 11.

Clay Adams: First I need to know where you want to meet and what time.

Logan M Isaac: Alex can probably find a room at the Divinity School, or we can come to your office.

Clay Adams: My office is fine—a central location.
Let’s do 9 o’clock.
I’ll put 9 a.m. on my calendar and notify Paul, Amal, and the Gypsy representatives.

Logan M Isaac: If Alex or someone else conflicts, I’ll let you know.

Clay Adams: Sounds good.

Logan M Isaac: Okay.

Clay Adams: At the end of the day, Logan, I want things to be productive.
It doesn’t sound like the conversation you had upstairs with my staff assistant was productive.
She was very worked up.

Logan M Isaac: She was asking me for information, and I gave it to her.

Clay Adams: She said you were very aggressive.

Logan M Isaac: Did she feel she was in danger?

Clay Adams: She said it felt aggressive.

Logan M Isaac: Did she feel she was in danger?

Clay Adams: When we meet, we’re not going to have that kind of dialogue.
Not aggressiveness—partnership and collaboration.

Logan M Isaac: Clay—did she ever feel she was in danger?
I need to take that seriously.

Clay Adams: She didn’t say that. She said it felt aggressive.

Logan M Isaac: If there are no more details, I don’t know what to say.
This is urgent. People like me kill themselves every 65 minutes. That gets me worked up.
But if she felt in danger, or if I crossed a line—yelled, brandished a weapon, anything—I need to know.

But I will not be made to feel guilty for expressing myself appropriately, given the situation.

Veterans already have to live under a stigma of being damaged goods or angry.
If she felt endangered, that’s serious. If she felt “uncomfortable,” I can’t control that.

I sat when she asked, left when we were done, gave her what she asked for.
If anyone wants to accuse me of inappropriate behavior, do it to my face and back it up.
I haven’t earned the right to speak as a veteran—I have it as a citizen.

Clay Adams: Nobody is trying to take that away from you, Logan.

Logan M Isaac: Then be careful about implying I “went off the deep end.”

Clay Adams: Nobody accused you of that.

Logan M Isaac: Then unless there’s a formal complaint—

Clay Adams: You need to be careful with your word choice right now.
I care about you, and about student veterans.

Logan M Isaac: If you did, it would look different.
If Duke cared, things would’ve happened earlier.
When Alex Nay killed himself—if Duke cared—it would’ve shown.
Web pages and videos aren’t caring.
Services are caring.
Resources are caring.

Clay Adams: Logan, I don’t know if this meeting will be productive if this is how you’re approaching it. Is there any reason to get together?

Logan M Isaac: Yes. Other student veterans have productive things to say and suggest.

Clay Adams: Are you willing to be productive?

Logan M Isaac: I’m not sure I’ve ever been productive.

Clay Adams: Logan, I’m not going to be yelled at.

Logan M Isaac: You need to know you’re responsible for the veterans@duke email and the webpage, right? That’s part of your job?

Clay Adams: That’s incorrect.

Logan M Isaac: Oh. You’re not paid?

Clay Adams: No. I volunteer because I care.

Logan M Isaac: They should pay someone.
Veterans deserve resources.
This is important enough to staff.

Clay Adams: I hear you.

Logan M Isaac: Then work with me, and Alex, and the others—instead of against us.
Don’t call me unproductive simply because I have emotions about this.

Clay Adams: I understand where you’re coming from. I may not agree with your methodology, but I understand your values.

Logan M Isaac: I’ll do my best to get the vets I know to your office at 9 on Friday.

Clay Adams: We’ll be here.

Logan M Isaac: Your office is best—no need to worry about reservations.

Clay Adams: Yes, that makes sense.

Logan M Isaac: Okay.

Clay Adams: I’ll reach out to the Gypsy committee students as well.

Logan M Isaac: Alright.

Clay Adams: Have a safe drive to Fayetteville.

Logan M Isaac: Thank you. Hopefully I’ll see you Friday.

Clay Adams: Take care. Bye.

Logan M Isaac: This is Logan M. Isaac. It is now 5:26 p.m. I’ve concluded my call with Clay Adams, who called me approximately 21 minutes and 33 seconds ago.
It is Wednesday, November 6th.