Red Letter Christians TV

Tony Campolo and Shane Claiborne of Red Letter Christianity TV interviewed me in June 2012 about my first book, Reborn on the Fourth of July.

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I spend a lot of time talking to young people high school students University students and I asked them over and over again do you go to church over and over again I get the same answer no I don't and when I asked why they all give me the same answer it's not that they've given up believing in God they say I don't go to church because church is boring well maybe it is maybe it isn't but I have this to say Jesus is important and if you could get a good looking up Jesus a good look at Jesus as he comes through the New Testament you'll find him exciting and that's what this program is about [Music]

welcome you're watching red-letter Christianity I'm Shane this is Tony and this show is all about taking Jesus seriously the red letters in the Gospels in sand what if we lived our life as if Jesus really meant that stuff today we're gonna have one of the most important conversations and controversial ones that I think we can we can have and and it is really comes down to this idea can we serve God in our country and sometimes those feel like they're in conflict and certainly the Nazi soldiers were asked that question weren't they in World War two a lot of Christians were drafted into the Nazi army yeah and they said what do I do do i remain patriotic and serve my country and persecute Jews or do I remain faithful to Jesus so our guest today Logan mail out to her he's and I don't want to equate American soldiers with Nazi soldiers by any stretch of the imagination of what that kind of conflict does exist between serving your country and serving your God and there's times where they line up better in times when they don't and for Logan that that's one of the things I love about our guest today he is a veteran of the Iraq war but he began to feel that those things were in collision and and and he said I feel like I'm trying to serve two masters you know God and country I'm trying to hold a cross in one hand a gun and the other and I can't love my enemies at the same time kill them and so his campaign is and for God and country but in that order so it's going to be a great conversation today with Logan yeah and you know he's not unusual it seems to me that this war in Iraq is different than any war we've ever had and the same with Afghanistan in that young men are coming home traumatized so many of them get need psychiatric help I think it's approximately one-third of all the people returning from the from that arena of war are messed up and an addition to that unlike any other war these guys come home and they say whoa I did my tour of duty sorry we're sending you back again and they come home and sorry we're sending you back again three terms of duty and that didn't happen even in World War two when you did your bombing raids and it was over they brought you home they didn't keep you there time and time again it's a terrible situation and these guys are brave that are going over there to stand up for what they believe are American principles we must never diminish their bravery and their willingness to fight for what they think is freedom but it's beginning to be questionable are they fighting for freedom I have a pile of these letters from soldiers now that are just like Logan's story and we want to talk about those letters and don't go away you're gonna meet one of the really interesting people that we've ever had on this show so stay with us Logan will be with us and you'll have a good chance to meet this guy firsthand [Music]

we're here with Logan he's a veteran from the Iraqi war and he's written a book and and dealing with his experiences and his reflections since that time and you know this guy really well well you you you know I I'm trying to remember the first time we met I think you you had sent me a letter really just talking about the collision you felt in your soul as you're trying to follow Jesus and serve the country so tell me remind us about that I think I first contacted you in the middle of the desert in Southern California on a training exercise getting ready to go on what would have been my second deployment and several months before I had I was convicted by the gospel of Jesus non-violence but I had been in for over five years at that point and had one tour of duty over there yeah I went to Iraq in 2004 for 14 months came back in February 5 and this I would have deployed in August of 2006 but after having served over five years I saw a lot of binary thinking so on the one hand the military is all good and it's a it's a you know it's God's head of judgment in the Middle East and on the other hand the military is all bad and and Christians have to extricate themselves that I didn't all costs and the guys I served beside in Iraq and that I was getting ready to deploy II with again just just didn't fit that bill and so these these kind of polar camps just came crumbling down I didn't have any way of figuring out how to go about that that tension as a Christian and so rise I'd contacted Shane was not long after I become convinced that I would have to as a Christian lay down my my weapon but I didn't feel I didn't feel called out of the military and so I actually got to tell this story because so he said I actually care about you know ending the violence over there I just can't kill anybody so you said I'll stay in the military but I'm not gonna carry a weapon right so you gotta you gotta tell they they send him psychiatric evaluation because they thought you'd gone crazy well there's a line you use in which you said there's a lot of things I'd be willing to die for but I don't think there's anything I'm ready to kill for that that was his line I guess yeah did you lay that line on him but no I I heard that from the early Christians they said for Christ we can die but we can't kill yeah and I think that's really wise one of the books I had been reading was by a guy named lieutenant lieutenant colonel Dave Grossman who actually it's a very convincing case that the the real danger and the real kind of peril of war is not necessarily being killed but having being asked to kill and so what's really going on with soldiers it's not I mean these are these are guys that know what they're getting themselves into have the utmost respect for their courage and bravery but it's not that they're that they know that they might be killed but when they come to the realization that I'm capable of killing another human being because I've been told to by someone and when that that begins to break down we have a lot of what we see now which is one fastest occurring epidemics of soldiers suicide in Vietnam 10 years later at least twice as many veterans who killed themselves and died almost 100,000 veterans who kill themselves by the 1980s are not ready for this one I don't know whether you have this figure but 30% of all homeless men in America are veterans of the Vietnam War right we psychologically destroy these people and we bring them home and we don't welcome them home with gratitude I mean and it's not happening now again with the Iraqi veterans they come home and we're not there to welcome them not there to say thank you you risk your life you laid it on the line and we we just kind of go on about our business we don't want to even put up the money through taxes to pay for this war this is the first war that's been unfunded by the American people I think credible there are a group of people who are very willing and eager to thank veterans for their service and in the Vietnam War that the prevailing paradigm was we're not grateful it's a bad war you must be bad people and now we've kind of it seems as though the pendulum has swung too now we don't have anywhere else anyway else to interact with you so we're going to be we're going to just shower your gratitude but what that does is like for example when I came back home I had been in Mo's dual and intensify fight two or three days prior and the first thing I heard in the airport was thank you and I had to I'd to be prepared to level my weapon another human being and so when we when our immediate reaction I was gratitude we don't allow veterans the space to negotiate their own moral misgivings about war we aren't allowed to grieve as human beings who've gone through this we have to accept what is we've done is good but that that violates something internal to us and so it's really difficult that on the one hand we venerate or on the other hand we've Illinois and right there in the middle where conversation can really occur often times especially in church veterans are met with with silence mm-hmm and so one of it one of those things we try and do we try and recognize people but even asking veterans to stand with Memorial Day Veterans Day July 4th oftentimes the service that we're thinking them for is traumatic and so particularly younger veterans who've gone on repeated deployments who who often will get out and have and lose this this deep sense of meaning to that in the military when we ask them to stand to be recognized for a service that may have been traumatic for them it it it's it's difficult it's not it doesn't fit into an easy paradigm all the time so I want you to tell this this story when you when you because what happened was in your own journey you you you felt that collision and then what what I told I remember telling you was you're in good company because there's folks like st. Francis there's and you discovered a million more soldier Saints that felt that same collision so tell your story first NIM tell where you found good company with with soldiers that left their own weapons yeah so as so shortly after I contacted you I began the process of applying to be a conscientious objector but I wasn't seeking discharge I was actually explicitly asking to return to Iraq without a weapon and I nobody else that I knew of at the time had done that so I was forging new ground and but I was in like I said a good company and so as a part of that process you have to get an evaluation from a psychologist and you have to get an interview with the chaplain and basically what the co process is trying to get to the heart of is whether or not you're sincere in your convictions because they can't tell you what you can or can't believe but they need to know that what you believe sincere so I went to the and so in the midst of all this you've got I'm talking to just war pastors I'm talking to pacifist friends and I'm again I'm seeing these kind of two camps and my pastor at the time I gave him my application he accused me of abandoning them that women and children swore to protect two militant Muslims Mike my commander eventually at the end of the process what accused me of aiding the enemies of America and the meantime all I had left was you know digging into church history and so in short order I discovered for example Veterans Day on November 11th not too long ago was actually Armistice Day the day in which we ended what was to be the the war to end all wars and in nineteen in the 50s or 60s maybe was even later all of a sudden becomes Veterans Day because we World War one wasn't the last war and so now what do we do with this Armistice Day but even before then before America celebrated Veterans before the world mourn the fact that we fail to have no more Wars the church actually celebrated a conscientious objector by the name Martin of Tours and one of Tours was one of the first soldier Saints in the early church in the first four centuries that wasn't killed for refusing to fight he actually shortly after he entered the military he was baptized after he closed the freezing big beggar and immune and he was a great story actually because he take takes off his his armor right well he has this Lance lambskin cloak which is indicative of his stature in the military and he was he was actually in the Praetorian Guard which was protecting Caesar and so we never actually had to go to battle until 356 25 years into his military service when Caesar stands before him to give him a gift to secure his loyalty before the battle of verbs and 356th and Martin for the first time now has to wield the sword against enemy instead of wield a sword to protect Caesar and he says very loudly I've served you long enough now let me serve my god I'm a soldier of Christ is not permissible for me to fight he gets locked out soldier of God it's not permissible for me - yep and this was after 25 years of service and so many of the other soldiers saints immediately upon a baptism or conversion they would make the same declaration they would be killed st. George who the patron of England he was beheaded after he was sliced and diced on a wheel of swords one of the earliest guys maximilian de beste did the same thing seriously so you had it easy yeah I didn't get me head to God I'm just I'm not heretic or something yeah if the interesting thing is that most of our viewers and I think most of contemporary Christians do not realize that for the first 300 plus years of the Christian era from the time of Christ the next 300 years Christians were called upon to not participate in the military I mean we we act like it was always this way it wasn't and there isn't a church historian that will debate that they can actually pinpoint the time when the whole attitude changed I'm always a troubled nonviolent residual tell me even the Assemblies of God at a tradition of being a peace Church yeah at one time yeah the the thing is I'm troubled as a non-violent resistor for a very obvious reason I know my freedom to be on this show and say these things your freedom to be on this show and say these things has been has been bought at the blood of heroic men and women who laid down their lives to give me this freedom this freedom to stand up and say I don't believe in violent resistance what if what I saw even though I'm a civilian I have inner tensions and inner turmoil because I'm grateful for what others have done in times past and and yet at the same time I I read church history and I read the Bible where Jesus says love your enemies which probably means we shouldn't kill them I'm I'm torn it's not just the military this too I think I don't disagree with that but I always want to point out the the fact that it's Christians there's one ultimate sacrifice that the service men that is a service men women there's giving their lives are certainly sacrificial and I think their bravery should be commended but we should be able to separate that from saying that the data is what bought us fill in the blank there was one ultimate sacrifice of Christ that I'm I'm absolutely positive he would hope that that would have been the last time to sacrifice to end all sacrifice and people say that is the triumph of the Resurrection is that there's no need for more blood right and yet we've gotten emails that we've gotten to say we are the sacrificial lambs of America that's really dangerous dangerous theologically loaded language because the interesting thing is lambs can't kill you know and so we can die for Christ but not right and in the kind of moderate position which really raises questions about wards I saw a t-shirt recently across the front it said old soldiers never die you know that quote of of McArthur old soldiers never die and on the back it said only the young ones do that's rather frightening statement it's one thing for politicians and Generals to sit back here and say let's go to war it's quite another thing to be the young men and the young women who actually pick up the guns and have to go out there and lay down their lives for what these guys and it's usually guy make these decision that the ultimate sacrifice or that the sacrifices of the men and women before us should never do it should silence us to the fact that war is never the ultimate answer yeah and so if we're using the sacrifice of men and women to say now be quiet and accept the way things are that's not that's not the sacrifice I made when I was in the military I stand I prepared to give my life so that we could actually have these conversations I want these conversations to occur and I think they need to occur you know I want you to talk about going back to your rock because Logan and I Tony got to go back to your rock together but when do you win that just a couple years ago and you went this time as a Christian peacemaker and and here's the thing I'm reminded of Gandhi when he said if I have to choose between a soldier and a coward I'll choose a soldier every day because their passion can be channeled into love I can do nothing with a coward and and I think it's remarkable that there are people in the military that are have a holy anger about injustice and evil and they want to they want to protect the innocent and the question is can we do that as Christ did and that's really like a part of our going going back did it feel like to go back to your rock without a gun you know just to build relationships in what was the second time that I went back to Middle East is a civilian the first time was in 2006 to Palestine with Christian peacemaker teams and I don't think I would have been able to go back in 2010 had it not been for communities like the simple way and people in Camden that I was living with going back as a service member as a veteran as a former soldier who's occupying Iraq I knew that I was the enemy for them and that there was nothing that I could ever expect or hope for in terms of forgiveness or reconciliation or grace and Luther and I mean see all Steelers and had this great line that Grace has never earned or expected it's received his gift and so I knew that if if I were to go back to Iraq all I could practically ask for or hope for is I don't know is what I deserved I mean I went back and before I did I wrote a second will and testament because I I knew that it was dangerous but when we got there it became clear that it revealing my identity would be dangerous not just to myself and the members of our team but the people who hosted us it was it was difficult for me to be there I listened to a lot of stories about what soldiers did to these families we spoke with and they didn't know I was a soldier they they had no reason to think that and at the end I think I think if I learned anything besides the fact that grace has never earned only received it's at some times joy and grief walked together life is made up of each we can celebrate the already of the kingdom of God and still more than not yet that hasn't come and for me my second my second turn to Iraq was was a little bit more of the not yet and that was hard for me to swallow at the time so now you come back and you're doing all kinds of stuff to walk alongside people who have a similar story soldiers and current service members former service members conscientious objectors all like trying to figure out how to follow Jesus and how to live their conscience when they feel that same collision and what are a couple of those stories or what do you see happening right now well in 2008 myself and Kyle who was interviewed earlier and another guys Zach several US came together and we just tried to walk alongside these folks that were having the same kind of thoughts and and and concerns and incidentally there's a lot aren't there yeah I mean you're not this you and cow are not these anomalies stories there are hundreds and hundreds of Christians and soldiers that that are struggling with yes issue yeah so six percent of the United States military identifies as Evans elekid Christian or no I'm sorry 60 percent of chaplains identify as evangelical Christian forty percent of the entire military force identify the same way and so we know they're out there I mean these these are not things that you can dismiss for very long but I think there's there's a significant amount of hope and so what we did is we formed this this group called Centurions guild that acts as a community in which we can have these conversations or begin to have these conversations and we chose the imagery of the Centurion because he pops up so much in the Bible in the New Testament and and like these camps when I first read the Bible before his in the military I mean it Centurion I thought was a bad guy he was the ones you know nailing Christ across he was the one person aside he was the one who was making the the Jews carry his military gear but then I began reading the Bible as a as a veteran as a service member and I realized that history is the one of the greats in all of Israel it's the one it's the last thing that a Catholic priest says before consuming the Eucharist and it's so true Lord I'm not worthy to receive you but only say the word and I shall be healed two questions when you mentioned Centurions those who are on the pro-war side would say we don't find anywhere in the scripture where Jesus says to the Centurion well from now on you've got to stop being a Centurion you've got to drop out of the military and they will make a big point out of that the second thing is they always raised the question of Dietrich Bonhoeffer who was like you and I are committed to nonviolent resistance but there came a point at which he saw Hitler going to destroy massive numbers of people and so he entered into the plot to assassinate Hitler because he felt that it was crucial to do this he did this we Payne because he realized it was going against the teachings of Jesus but he felt there came this point of necessity of having to stop something that was so horrendously evil that to not act would be in fact an evil thing in itself like how I asked you the two biggest question in the world when we have three minutes left yeah well I wanted to make sure so good day welcome back with great answers I I wanna I want him to come back with great answers um well the one that the most direct line of Scripture is usually Romans 13:1 and we forget Romans 13:10 that says love causes no harm to its neighbor but more importantly Romans 13 is no more cry to perpetuate more war than Ephesians is to commit domestic abuse where we call wives to submit to their husbands but also among husband being that you're to submit to the authorities write it to the authorities um and Bonhoeffer the most I can make of him I wouldn't call him a pacifist but he saw the fact that something had to be done and he said I am NOT going to remain I'm not going to avoid doing something because I could be therefore guilty I'm going to assume the the guilt in possibly a similar way as Christ did and yeah this is what I'm doing is wrong but something has to be done and I would never return to the pulpit again yeah I mean you make a really good point that you did almost the exact opposite of what we do which is try to bless and baptize right now it's like bond over said no I'm actually getting ready to yes and don't try to bless what I'm doing if anything that's a call to not to not sit in a chair and and bad or feel good but to stand up and start doing something speak up act up find a way to to to question war maybe not to oppose it maybe maybe you think the war is good but that that never means we don't question it that is one of our most sacred duties as Christians is to question war and that's what the just where doctrine is about you got this new book coming out and I read it and I loved it and I endorsed it and the statement that I made in the little blurb that will go somewhere in the book is that one of our early American patriots said my country right or wrong but right or wrong my country you know my country right or wrong may she always be right but right or wrong my country that's a bad statement right or wrong my country but if my country is wrong my job is a stand against my country and call it - the righteousness of the gospel the righteousness of God we never should let nationalism stand in the way of our commitment to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior right yeah and that's what you're about yeah t-shirts it's a god forgotten country in that order and and that's that's really what you're saying is we a love for our country is not a bad thing but I love isn't defined by borders or nationality it's defined by Christ and that and it's radically more importantly like if I love the woman I'm with I'm not going to look past their weaknesses I'm going to love her despite them and it's it's love with one's country I think is very similar we don't look past it sweetness if we have to be honest about where we failed in order to make ourselves a more complete sense of ourselves and we in our commitments to nonviolent resistance have to say we have to be careful to show love and respect and give dignity to those who differ with us because the conversation is going on and we have our convictions but many of them are operating with convictions as well we respect that even as we in fact object the war and to violence as a means of solving anything that WWJD what would Jesus do or don't you've got a little over commercialized but still not a bad statement of good state what would Jesus do hey thanks for being here hey we give to our guests to wheedle we got a WWJD break no it's better than that it says red-letter Christians your letters yeah and you guys take the red letters of the Bible seriously namely the words of Jesus which are highlighted in red wear it with dignity I will do that thank you very much blessings on you for being on our show [Music]

this is an incredible issue and it becomes more heightened all the time there's there's so much at stake and and there's there's lives at stake there's people's moral conscience at stake and really the gospel when I when I was in Iraq with Logan I remember this woman saying what what I'm wondering is why like she said I've given up on God because my country is doing tremendous violence you're and it's in the name of God and your country's doing tremendous violence in the name of God and my question is what kind of God wants to bless violence there was a movie it's still shown on television from time to time the longest day about the landing on Normandy beaches and just as the battle is unfolding in chaos on both sides and death is on site they have Eisenhower saying sometimes I wonder whose side God's on in this war and they have Rommel then saying you know sometimes I wonder whose side God's on in this war and I see God standing and looking at the whole situation and weeping for deaths on both sides well it does say that the Jesus wept over Jerusalem because they didn't know the things that would lead for peace and what a good life Jesus is still weeping and you know his Logan was talking I I was thinking of verses like I was thinking of Romans the 12:1 and to be not conformed to this world but let the Holy Spirit transform you do what the Spirit leads you to do rather than what society tells you to do and all of these things trouble me I gotta say when I listen to Logan I get trouble because I listen to other people who were in the Just War mindset and they trouble me and it's what I do I think what's incredible is this is the exact thing that we should be talking about is Christians not avoiding hard conversations but having them and there's a lot of good book slogans is one of them and there's another book I like called a faith not worth fighting for and there's there's other books that raise really good questions about this they'll be our new book coming out in October it the book what is it red letter revolution we were writing a book together but we have a section of a section about militarism and and you know I'm reminded of those words that Ron Schneider said in night in the 1980s that gave birth to the Christian peacemaker teams which is an incredible place to go if you want to be a Christian for non-violence in the world and he said this we've got to have the same courage to die for the cross that people have had for the sword or else we should give up all of our t talk of non-violence and peace I'm sure you're thinking and that's what this show is about it's to get young people to think because many of you will be facing the question of will I be a part of the military you need to pray you need to think you need to read scripture and you can't listen to anybody that's here you have to listen to Jesus and to those who would in fact say what does the scripture be nice you